The Sapio Files
The Sapio Files
Episode 14: Gender Norms, Feminism, and Other Such Things
Sapiophile(noun): One who is attracted to intelligence. Join us, fellow fun-loving lover of knowledge, as we dig into your favorite topics with our very own nerdy diatribes, words of wisdom, and takes on life as millennials. Welcome to The Sapio Files!
Chelsea:Hello everybody!
Caela:Hello.
Chelsea:Welcome back.
Caela:I get to be here live, with Chelsea, another week!
Chelsea:So much fun when she stays here!
Caela:It is.
Chelsea:So, welcome back! Today, we wanted to talk about some of those tough little...
Caela:Pesky...
Chelsea:little gender stereotypes. And we're not going to be man-hating, that's not what this is.
Caela:No, we are not about that. Especially since both of us are sisters to brothers and know a number of wonderful men.
Chelsea:Yes. So we're going to talk to you today about some gender stereotypes. Now, we both happen to be fabulous women...
Caela:Yes we do!
Chelsea:But for the men out there, this is also for you.
Caela:Yes, because we cannot in good faith, or in an intellectual way, talk about gender stereotypes without also including the other side of the coin.
Chelsea:Yes. So how about, first: many people are very polarized on this term. They either love it and wear it as a banner, or they use it as a dirty word.
Caela:Oh, hey Chels! Are you talking about... feminism?
Chelsea:I AM, Caela! What is feminism to you?
Caela:So, feminism to me is not a dirty word. It does not mean that I go around with a t-shirt saying,"I hate men" on it, and run around screaming.
Chelsea:Although, that's a great Cole Porter song- I Hate Men from Kiss me Kate.
Caela:Yes it is. What it means to me is that I have, or should have, the same rights as a human, as another human. And that my thoughts, values, opinions and actions as a human are just as important as the thoughts, values, opinions of another human. And when I say other human, I mean men. So I would value, and I think men's and women's opinions, thoughts, actions, and values should hold the same weight. That's what I believe feminism is for me. And I believe that if I put in the same amount of work, and I get the same outcome as my colleague who is a man, that we should be given the same amount of respect and admiration for that work.
Chelsea:Absolutely. Feminism to me means that everyone, men and women, are treated the same way by society. And that goes both ways. That's not just talking about, you know, pay gap or all of that stuff. It goes both ways. There are definitely female privileges that men don't have.
Caela:Absolutely.
Chelsea:So to me, feminism means to own yourself as a strong woman and be equal,--not better-- equal--- to the men out there. And overall, our society is doing a pretty good job lately at improving this, but there's certainly a ways that we have to go still, even in this day and age.
Caela:Right. We've taken so many steps.
Chelsea:We have. We aren't wearing corsets anymore.
Caela:Historically speaking, we're no longer treated as property, we aren't the same value as two horses and a pig, we can vote... so I mean, historically speaking, we've made huge strides. But I still feel there is so much more work to be done. And Chelsea is absolutely right, there have been many improvements and there have been so many movements lately, especially by the young population that have shown just how important it is that we take the derogatory nature out of feminism because it's not derogatory... and just see it for what it is- that we want to be equals..
Chelsea:Right. And I see how some people would take it in the other sense, so you know, to address all sides of this-- We're not just going to pick one side and say, you're right, you're wrong. So to address all sides of this-- Sure. I understand how people who take it to an extreme of man hating and"Let's kill all the men and we're going to take over the world and be better than the men".... I totally get why that's offensive to people.
Caela:And that just won't work!
Chelsea:It won't work! And so people who see feminism in that light, I understand why maybe you are against it or you wouldn't feel that that would be something you would support or believe in,
Caela:And for some of these people, maybe if you met someone in your life who was that type of...
Chelsea:Quote unquote feminist?
Caela:Quote unquote feminist. And if that's the only life experience you have with someone who claims to be a feminist, then I can empathize with why you would feel that way. However, we are here to tell you that that is not the true nature of feminism and we hope that by listening to this, it will help you take the time to think about what it means to be a feminist, and maybe see it as just a type of"equal rights" person.
Chelsea:Absolutely, so I think that when you talk about"let's treat people equally", that also includes the acceptance of different gender norms that might not be what you typically perceive as a masculine thing or a feminine thing. Accepting people as people, not because of their gender, so traditionally feminine things are seen as, like, the softer, more of...
Caela:Submissive..
Chelsea:Well, even in a positive light. I wasn't even thinking that. I was going to say things like sweet, creative, bubbly, energetic, that kind of personality. I mean, yes, in history, there is the submissive, the property, all of that... but just in today's society like what girly stuff is seen as...
Caela:Sugar and spice and everything nice.
Chelsea:Yes! So like... the sweet, happy, bubbly, energetic type of personality is seen as female. Also, the emotional types of personalities are seen as more female. So women are able to express their emotions publicly much more readily than men can... which is unfortunate because everyone has emotions. On the flip side, masculine things are typically seen as strong, independent, tough. It could be, like-- athletic-- that's seen as a more masculine thing. Like...Why is it called a tomboy if a girl is into athletics? Maybe she's just good at sports! So... the more dominating, strong, intellectual types of people are considered more masculine. But, we all know that people are not necessarily neatly in those packages. So whether you are male or female, it IS acceptable to be who you are. And being who you are, whatever that is, is important. And I don't know about you, but I know there are a lot of men who feel like they're afraid to show emotion because it makes them weak in their eyes. I don't know-- I tend to respect men who show emotion so much because it makes them more real to me.
Caela:I also respect men who show emotion. And just to make sure that I'm being completely clear with all of our listeners, I'm actually the opposite in some ways. I'm a woman who-- I easily feel things but I don't often show my emotions.
Chelsea:Right.
Caela:So I can really sympathize with that guy who sometimes gets torn apart for feeling his emotions. It's a completely human thing to do and it's 100% okay to do so if that's who you are. I get torn apart in the other direction-- people say I'm cold and not feeling because...
Chelsea:Because you're a girl and you don't cry?
Caela:Because I'm a girl and I don't cry. I mean I do cry...
Chelsea:Occasionally.
Caela:But it's usually when I really deeply feel a strong emotion. I get upset, but...
Chelsea:I cry much more easily than you. I'm emotional, but not in a bad way. I just feel things deeply, I'm empathetic and I'm more of the crier. She's more of the strong one.
Caela:If I'm stressed out or sad or angry, I just run.
Chelsea:You do. She does run. The other thing that she does is if I'm sad, she'll usually just give me some kind of beverage.
Caela:I do, I'm definitely a hot beverage kind of person.
Chelsea:Sheldon Cooper!
Caela:I didn't even know that. So if you watch the Big Bang Theory, one of the things that one of the characters, Sheldon Cooper, does is when someone's upset, he just kinda says"there there" and gives them a hot beverage because that's what he was taught to do by his mom and dad. And I just do that because everyone deserves a coffee or a tea or a hot chocolate when they're upset!
Chelsea:Yeah. I remember one time in college I was home for winter break or something and I was upset about-- something--I don't know what I was upset about. And my mom was like,"What do you want? What can I help you with?" And I was like,"I need hot chocolate." And she's like,"hot chocolate?" and I said"Yeah, Caela gives me hot chocolate when I cry!" So I needed the hot chocolate because I didn't have Caela to give me the hot chocolate. Anyway, we digress. Basically the point is that we need to be able to accept a variety of people. So the more emotional, sensitive, artistic, creative men, that's fantastic. The more tough, sporty, intellectual, strong, independent women-- that's awesome too.
Caela:And if you happen to be the norm-- or the sterotypical norm, I'll say-- because there's no norm... People are all so different and so incredibly diverse that there's no real norm for this, but we also have to address that if you are a more sensitive, soft, emotional woman or a more masculine strong, sporty, alpha male man, then that's okay too. Because there's nothing wrong with that if that's genuinely who you are.
Chelsea:Right. So we were actually listening to another podcast the other day,
Caela:Uugh. We were irate!
Chelsea:Yes, and there was this woman on there-- and I don't know her name, and I'm not going to mention her name because you know... we're not going to call people out...but there's this woman on there who was talking... it was like a dating advice podcast, because sometimes those are entertaining to listen to for laughs.
Caela:Right. Absolutely.
Chelsea:And so it was a dating advice podcast and there was this woman who was on there that was like... she's giving a woman a piece of advice that,"Oh, well the reason you have trouble with men is that you're independent, you're too strong, and men don't like you to be strong."
Caela:To be alpha
Chelsea:Right,"You're too alpha and the man wants to be the alpha, so because you're so alpha, you should pretend to be beta to get the right guy for you". And, okay, here's what I have to say to that...
Caela:SO much...
Chelsea:(laugh) Well, we'll dissect it in a second.
Caela:(laugh)
Chelsea:Alright, so there are certainly men out there who prefer to be alpha because that is their nature. But there are also men who are very into the strong independent woman. And I mean... I know a lot of them. I've met a lot of them. So the right person for YOU does not require you to change yourself. And that's what I thought was so ridiculous about this because she was like,"No, you want the right one for you, so you have to be submissive to him"... and that's not a thing. If you're a strong independent woman, the right guy for you is someone who appreciates that and matches it and challenges it. Not somebody who says"you're too much, you need to stop."
Caela:Absolutely. And Chelsea and I were taking a walk earlier today and I was telling her that a dating advisor asking someone to change their personality from one that is independent and strong to one that is more submissive and taciturn is like someone saying,"Okay, you need to get a husband, and he only likes people who like apples. But you don't like apples, you like peaches. You need to pretend that you like apples"... And then you're eating apples for the rest of your life and you don't like apples. So you're doing yourself a big disservice.
Chelsea:It's not the relationship that you want if that's what the person really requires of you. And you know what? The other way is good too. If you happen to be someone who is more sweet, quiet, introverted, and you enjoy having a stronger support system and having the person that you're with be more of the alpha, then great! That works too. But you shouldn't ever have to change what you really are to get the right person for you. And it's not even just a male/ female dynamic. Because you know, we were talking about-- a couple podcasts ago, we were talking about same-sex relationships. The same thing works there. And they were talking about that question everyone asks:,"Who's the man and who's the woman?"
Caela:Stop it!
Chelsea:You see, that question right there is asking you who's alpha and who's beta, and that's not necessarily healthy. There doesn't even need to be an alpha and a beta. There could be-- there could be alpha/beta, there could be equals; there could be a dynamic where you switch who's alpha depending on needs. But you want to find who is a good fit for you, not who sees you as this perfect little submissive woman if you're a woman or this big, strong man, if you're a man because they need to see you as the real you.
Caela:I like to think about it like-- a relationship can be somewhat like an escape room at times.
Chelsea:I love escape rooms!
Caela:So for me, I do like being an alpha; I do like to be in charge. I mean, there are some things I know I'm very good at. I'm good at riddles, I'm good at seeing hidden things that others may not see.
Chelsea:You are.
Caela:But then there are some things that just are not my strength, so I will put myself in a beta role on purpose if there's a math problem.
Chelsea:Yeah!
Caela:I will be like,"No! you got this! Way to go!". So I think a relationship should be more like that.
Chelsea:Switching.
Caela:It shouldn't always be alpha/ beta, it should be"Who is going to be the strong person in this particular instance?" and it should be balanced over time.
Chelsea:Yeah. Personally, that's what I like to find in relationships. Somebody who can support you and challenge you, but sometimes they'll take a stronger role and sometimes they'll let you take a stronger role. It depends on the situation and the person.
Caela:Right.
Chelsea:And I think that's important, but that could just be my preference. So yeah-- this was our rant about this podcast we were listening to you about how women need to make themselves more submissive...
Caela:I was ready to throw your phone.
Chelsea:...to catch a man. Oh yeah!
Caela:I was so mad.
Chelsea:But there is this weird dynamic of the differences in what genders are expected to do and what they're not. So we thought we would go from the opposite perspective today. I mean, obviously people talk more often about--when they talk about gender equality-- they talk about the ways that women do not have the same benefits as men. That's the one that's most readily talked about.
Caela:And yes, we're not going to downplay that. This is just the other way.
Chelsea:Yeah, and we'll talk about that too. But we wanted to point out that because of these gender norms there are things that we can do as women that men can not get away with.
Caela:It's true.
Chelsea:And I'd be lying if I said I didn't know this and occasionally use it to my advantage. I mean, all women seem to do that, but it's something that we have to take from both sides because equality doesn't go just one way. It goes the other way too. There are things that-- people get put into a box just because they're a white male and people don't appreciate that. So here are some benefits that women have faced on the gender norms: Number one, the biggie. Yes. So when I go out on a date, in most cases I never have to pay for it. Neither do I. And this is just the cultural norm. Men tend to offer to or like to pay for dates. At least in the early phases.
Caela:Though, I do offer. I always offer.
Chelsea:I've always offered as well. There have not been very many dates at all... unless it was something like they paid in advance or I didn't see the bill or something... There have not been many dates at all where I didn't offer like,"Can I help you out?". Usually, especially early on they will say no or...
Caela:Occasionally. I'm so stubborn. I can be a pain in the butt sometimes.
Chelsea:You're stubborn?
Caela:So they'll say no and I'll say,"Okay, can I get dessert then, please?" or"Can I pay the tip?"
Chelsea:Well, sometimes like... I'll buy movie tickets, they can buy dinner or something like that. But...I appreciate it as a nice gesture, I do--- because it's them saying that they appreciated the time with you and so...
Caela:Oh I definitely appreciate it.
Chelsea:So men: I mean it is definitely something that women, or at least us, appreciate and don't take for granted, so thank you! But the cultural norm that the man always has to pay--- like what if the woman makes more money?
Caela:I was going to say that.
Chelsea:There are many cases in today's society where maybe the woman makes more money. Or-- what if the man is going through a financial hardship right now? Should he not be able to date anyone without feeling like he's less of a man? So that's the first one and that's a biggie because that's pervasive in our culture today. It's a nice gesture. It's not-- it's not really a problem. It's not something that as a woman I'm going to complain about, but it is something that I don't necessarily feel is... I feel like it's a hangover from an earlier time period when men were the only ones who had money.
Caela:Right.
Chelsea:So now that there is much more opportunity for men AND women to be making good money, it's not necessarily societally appropriate any longer, although it is still a kind and appreciative gesture. I mean-- see on the flip side, if I were to go on a first date-- not necessarily somebody I had been dating a while, but if I were to go on a first date and the guy didn't offer to pay... I might think he didn't like me. Just because of how society is... and I hate that that's kind of true. But if a guy does not offer to pay on the first date, I kind of overthink it because it's just so common for them to do so.
Caela:I feel like I've never actually tested that out because I've always offered to pay at the same time. I've had guys say,"Can we split the bill?", and I'm totally fine with that, even if it's like a first coffee date or something like that.
Chelsea:Yeah, I don't know. It's... it's weird. It makes me think about, like-- did they not think it was a date?
Caela:Okay
Chelsea:Just because it's how... it's what I'm used to. Like, even people that I dated for a longer period of time and eventually split everything with or even covered them on certain occasions when, you know, I felt like I had more money or I had something that I wanted to give to them... the first time, they pretty much always offer. I don't think I've ever been on a first date where the guy didn't. But I don't know, I'd have to think about that. It's only at the very beginning though. When you're dating someone for a longer time, if they want to split the bill or they ask you to cover something, that's not an issue to me.
Caela:Right.
Chelsea:Alright. So we've been on this topic for a little while.
Caela:So number two...
Chelsea:Number two of benefits women have.
Caela:So I'm going to preface this by saying: Of course, It is never okay to hit anybody.
Chelsea:No.
Caela:Don't hit people. That said, in altercations... One of the things I remember most vividly about The Notebook is when Allie is hitting Noah over and over again and he starts hitting himself, because he knows he can't hit her. And while I would never say that anyone should hit to solve a problem on either end, if a woman hits a man, it is a lot less frowned upon than if a man hits a woman.
Chelsea:Yes. And again, physical violence is not something we're condoning in any way, shape or form. But the whole,"I can't hit a girl, but I can beat up my guy friends" is a weird thing. There was actually... if anybody watches Crazy Ex Girlfriend-- which is hysterical, I would actually really suggest watching it if you haven't-- it is a very socially aware dramedy that is done as a musical. So there are musical numbers in every episode because the woman who is the main character is dealing with certain mental conditions and the way that she sees the world is in a series of musical numbers. So when she's going through something emotional, it comes out as a musical number. So there was this song in one of them where she's tangoing with her ex boyfriend at the time. They're angry at each other but they still like each other and it's this weird tango dance. And so at one point she's in the song, she stops and slaps him across the face. It's not like a big physical violence thing, she just slaps him... and I remember there's a pause in the song and the next line was,(sung)"I cannot hit you back.... because you are a lady..." Then her next line was,"that clearly is a double standard..."
Caela:Yes. And were not condoning hitting of anyone, but the fact that you could be--you know, worst case scenario-- you could be a husband in an abusive relationship with a wife who is abusive physically and people would still be like,"Are you serious?" If that was the case.
Chelsea:People don't always believe it in that way. Like people think-- there are some people who still think that men can't be raped.
Caela:Which is absurd.
Chelsea:No. And it's not EVER okay to do that to a man OR a woman,
Caela:Again, equality... it's not okay to do that to anyone.
Chelsea:Right, so that kind of thing. If it's not okay to hit a girl, why is it okay to hit a guy?
Caela:Right.
Chelsea:So that's that one. We talked a little bit about this one before-- but the ability to show emotion without being seen as weak. So a woman would be socially allowed to cry in front of friends. A man? Maybe not.
Caela:Right. So actually, you did your show reference.... so I am currently bingeing Pretty Little Liars on Netflix. It is actually exceptionally good. And my favorite couple is a couple... They have some ups and downs but they're both equally strong in different ways. He's much more athletic and the protector type like a police officer and she's much more brainy and intellectual. But what I love about both of them is that they're both willing to be emotional with one another. But people have actually criticized the relationship because the male character is someone who actually sheds tears. And they both get emotional... he's not overly emotional in my opinion, but it's just when it's needed... when the emotion is called for. It makes sense! And it really bothered me when people were hating on these characters. They're my favorite couple.
Chelsea:Why do we think less of men who show emotions? Men have emotions. Like, do we think they're robots and they don't feel anything? Men have emotions!
Caela:Stems from silly sayings from childhood.
Chelsea:So the showing emotions one-- that's another benefit that we have as women. This next one is just silly.
Caela:Yeah.
Chelsea:But It's so, it's so true. And it works.
Caela:Yeah... so we can paint a picture.
Chelsea:So you have a group of friends in a bar.
Caela:Yeah. And you're all hanging out, and you decide that you want to get a round of drinks.
Chelsea:Mm hmm. So first, you send the guy to the bar and it takes...
Caela:It takes forever.
Chelsea:It takes him like 40 minutes, people keep cutting in front of him, and the bartender is not seeing him. It takes him a long time to get a drink.
Caela:And then you send your bestie up. And she's wearing a really pretty red dress and her hair is done really nicely and everything... and she just gives him that look.
Chelsea:Just makes eye contact with the bartender or maybe leans over the bar.
Caela:And then immediately...
Chelsea:Five minutes later your round of drinks is there.
Caela:And hers is probably free.
Chelsea:It probably is. How many times have you gotten a free drink from a bartender?
Caela:At least one at every bar I've been to.
Chelsea:Uh Huh. So that's a double standard as well because even if you're an attractive man and like... I don't want to say it's an attractiveness thing because I mean it is, but it's more attractiveness of females... the person with the biggest boobs get served the fastest. And I hate to say that, but it's true. So we have that benefit also, like we have the ability to flirt to get out of tickets, things like that, because the society is just very centered on focusing on female attractiveness more so than male attractiveness.
Caela:Hmm. And this one in particular is one that I feel could leave a lot of questions unanswered, or that argument as to: Well, I've had a lot of men come up to me and say, you know,"Why is it okay for a a bartender to look at your breasts if you're leaning over a counter to get a free drink, but then it's not okay for someone else to make a comment about them."
Chelsea:Oh. I have an answer to that!
Caela:And of course...
Chelsea:There is a difference between comment and look... that is a big difference. Like the thing with the bartenders is they're not usually saying,"Hey, nice tits. Here's the drink."
Caela:(laugh)
Chelsea:They might notice and serve you first because of that. But if they're commenting on it, that's still inappropriate.
Caela:Right.
Chelsea:So... And that goes for... in life. You know what? People notice attractive people, they just do.
Caela:I notice attractive men.
Chelsea:I notice attractive men all of the time. That doesn't mean I leer at them and make comments.
Caela:And that doesn't mean... excuse my language... but that doesn't mean for every attractive guy I see I say,"Hey, nice ass bro!" Like, it's not something that people... it's not something that a lot of women do.
Chelsea:Some women do.
Caela:Some women, yeah... but it's just not something that I do. I mean, if I was dating a guy, and it was in a flirty,"hey, you look hot" kinda way...
Chelsea:Well, okay, to people you're dating, that's totally different because there's already an understanding that you're attracted to each other. But if there's no understanding that you're attracted to each other, then it's not appropriate.
Caela:Right. It's not appropriate, whether you are a girl saying it to a guy, or a guy saying it to a girl, or a girl saying it to another girl, or...
Chelsea:Right. Anybody. It's inappropriate for anybody.
Caela:It's inappropriate for anyone. If you're calling out a guy or a girl and they haven't shown any interest in you at all, you're just calling them out based on any pure physical thing, I'm just like... Can you get any more lowest common denominator, sir? By the way, I would not date you if you do that to me... just saying.
Chelsea:No... Like you can only comment on my body after there's been like a mutual understanding of mutual attraction and even then, if most of what you do is comment on my body, I'm not gonna be too interested for long. I mean, if we're already dating, you can say things occasionally, but if that's your focus, then that's not a good thing either.
Caela:I feel like it's just implied that--- if you're listening to a podcast called The Sapio Files...
Chelsea:You're probably smart.
Caela:You're smart, so it's implied that there are certain things like consent, or violence- whether it be physical, emotional, psychological-- we're not okay with that. But yes, it is easier for me to get a waiter's attention. And I feel like as a group... I grew up with some high class guys.
Chelsea:I did as well.
Caela:Like my guy friends and my brothers.... just awesome. But even so, my general state of inner monologue is,"Am I always doing something that will keep me safe?"
Chelsea:Yeah.
Caela:If I'm in a bar or walking down the street, am I going to get someone yelling at me? Like, I know it's always a possibility.
Chelsea:It happens. Yeah, I had...
Caela:Don't do that either, guys!
Chelsea:There was a custodian at work who stopped me and he's like,"You're distracting me", and I'm like,"I'm sorry?" and he's like,"Yeah, with that green dress, you're distracting me". And I was like... I'm at work. I literally was walking to the cafeteria to get coffee. I'm distracting you with my green dress? It wasn't a slutty dress, it was a work dress. Like, I was wearing it to work.
Caela:Did I tell you about my homeless hero in New York this winter?
Chelsea:I don't think so. Tell us... tell all our friends!
Caela:So I tend to carry one dollar bills and quarters with me in my pockets, especially in New York City, because if I see someone on the streets, especially in the wintertime, I'll buy them a hot chocolate so they have something warm to drink. Or in the summertime if it's really hot, I'll buy them a bottle of water or I'll just throw a dollar in their jar there. I just, I can't help it. And I did this-- I was actually walking in the city on my way to model for SmartGlamour.
Chelsea:Ooh SmartGlamour is a great company... We should plug them really quickly.
Caela:One woman show, based out of New York. She creates sizes XXS all the way up to 6XL, all customizable. She is a champion for Style at any Size, for Fit for any Body, and for All Bodies are Good Bodies.
Chelsea:Actually, my"distracting" green dress was a SmartGlamour dress.
Caela:Oh! Well...
Chelsea:Yes. It's really not distracting. It's nice, but it's not distracting.
Caela:So, I was going to be a model for my friend Mallorie, who is the owner and creator of SmartGlamour and I put a dollar bill into a guy's cup on the street and got him a hot coffee. And then I did my modeling, came back, and walking past the same area of Bryant Park.... now keep in mind, it's winter, so it's cold. I'm in leggings and boots and a long jacket. I am not in any way... like people say they harass women because of how they dress... I was dressed so that I was warm. That was how I was dressed. And this guy was like,"Hey baby, why don't you come over here and show me some of that...". And the homeless person that I gave coffee to yelled at him for me!
Chelsea:Excellent!
Caela:So that's why he's my homeless hero.
Chelsea:Snaps for homeless hero!
Caela:That's why it's just so important to just be nice to everyone you meet, no matter their station, because you never know who's gonna have your back. And it was just so nice to have someone defend me so I didn't have to yell back or anything.
Chelsea:Yeah... and even on that note... The fact that that's such a common thing that people do yell at women... I mean, probably at men sometimes as well... that's, you know, that goes, that brings us into the whole bigger topic... that's the whole me too thing. That's unfortunately such a real name for that movement...because I can't think of any women that I know who.... not necessarily assaulted... but who haven't at least been harassed at some point and it's unfortunate that that's the case. But at the same time, I know there are so many good men out there.... and good men: here's a call to you... Guys, stick up for the women in your life. If you hear a guy saying something inappropriate or making someone uncomfortable, tell them it's not cool... because we know that you're out there, good men... and we know a lot of you. We have a lot of good friends that are good men. So, I think that's something that, you know, good men... that's what you can do to help, and that is an amazing thing.
Caela:Right. And the truth of the matter is that it's not enough to just comment on a person's status and say,"I'm a good man". It needs action.
Chelsea:Yeah.
Caela:Anyone who is speaking on behalf of someone else who needs their help needs to show it through their actions and not just their words.
Chelsea:And also, I guess it's a little less common, but if you see a man being harassed, same thing.
Caela:Stick up for them.
Chelsea:Yeah.
Caela:In general, if you see someone in an uncomfortable position where someone is bullying someone else for any reason, whether it is based on their gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, color... then defend them
Chelsea:Yeah.
Caela:It's just the right thing to do.
Chelsea:And I know we're saying this is a call to the good men, but it's also a call to women. It's a call to everybody.
Caela:Everyone. Good people.
Chelsea:Yeah. Because that brings us back to gender equality. Good PEOPLE defend other PEOPLE. When you see a person being harassed, a good person would help stop that from happening. So... reallly, what is harassment anyways if not another form of bullying?
Caela:It is.
Chelsea:You know, take this guy in Bryant Park.... I bought him a cocoa and he remembered me.
Caela:Yeah.
Chelsea:You know, everybody's attracted to people at some point randomly.... everyone... men, women, everyone. But that doesn't mean you have to yell to them about it. If you're attracted to somebody and you want to talk to them, say,"Hi, what's your name? Nice to meet you."
Caela:Really, it works.
Chelsea:It's so much more effective than screaming like,"Hey, nice tits!"
Caela:Because if someone screamed that at me, I would walk away quickly from them. If that same person had thought that in their head, but then thought, maybe I should talk to her first... they'd likely at least get a first date or a cup of coffee from me.
Chelsea:Absolutely. So yeah, there's no shame in thinking things about other people. We all do it. We all look at people and are like... wow, that person's really attractive. It doesn't mean that the kind of behavior that we see a lot of times these days is appropriate.
Still Chelsea:Next part of our little shindig..... Oh, this is interesting. So have you ever noticed the attractiveness versus intelligence dynamic that exists with men and women today?
Caela:Oh, you mean how if a man is intelligent, he's more attractive, but if a woman is intelligent, she's less attractive?
Chelsea:It could go that way.. it can also go... you can flip the two, so let's do-- let's do your version first.
Caela:Okay.
Chelsea:So it's seen to be more attractive for men to be intelligent than for women.
Caela:Correct.
Chelsea:I think that goes back to that alpha/beta thing where people see it as threatening if a woman is too smart... which I don't even think is really that true for... for a lot of people, the good people. Because I don't know, I feel like if you're not interested in my brain... like that's my best thing... like bye boy, bye!
Caela:Right.
Chelsea:Um, and I feel like it depends on which kind of person you're talking to with the attraction/intelligence dynamic, that intelligence is seen as a stronger quality in men. A way to flip this that I was actually thinking about is... if a man is attractive and applies for a prestigious position, he is presumed to be more intelligent. If a woman is attractive and applies for a prestigious position, she is presumed to be less intelligent...
Caela:That's true
Chelsea:...and has to prove herself. So, for example, now I'm not going to say I'm not saying who is and is not smart, but for example... like the former president, Barack Obama, was an attractive man.
Caela:Yes.
Chelsea:At no point did anybody question whether he was intellectually capable of that position. They might have questioned his politics. You know, there's always people who were on both sides of the aisle. We're not talking about whether you agree with his politics, but was he intelligent and capable? Sure. Absolutely. But nobody questioned that. He's an attractive man. He's an intelligent man. Nobody saw them as opposed to each other. But can you imagine... Okay, I'm going to use this person as an example, a person in history. Can you imagine if Marilyn Monroe ran for president? Marilyn Monroe had an IQ equal to that of Einstein's. But people do not remember her for that. People remember her for her figure. If Marilyn Monroe ran for president, do you really think people wouldn't be questioning whether she was smart enough to do the job? Even though her IQ was that high...
Caela:Her IQ was really high
Chelsea:...because she's beautiful, and that's what they see. So for women, they have that-- that stuff that they have to overcome. And I've actually noticed that it's not just men doing this to women, it's women doing this to women.
Caela:Mmmhmm.
Chelsea:I noticed this when I was recently out of college and other times that I had been applying for jobs at different places.... Now, I'm in education and as a young person, like when I was like 22, 23, you know, young looking... and I've always looked a little younger than I am... I had a lot of issues with female principals or female bosses questioning me a lot harder in interviews and making assumptions that I wasn't as smart as I was.
Caela:Right.
Chelsea:Male principals didn't do that as much.
Caela:I've gotten comments like,"Wow, you're really bold; you talk like a man".
Chelsea:Wow.
Caela:And this is other women talking to me. Or, like you said, where I get grilled until they know without a shadow of a doubt that I am as intelligent as I say I am. And I feel like that doesn't happen with men. At least not all the time.
Chelsea:Yeah. Not that it doesn't happen with men, but it happens more with other women. So that's something we've got to think about as women. We said this in the other one, when we gave each other awards. You said this about me... I've certainly been presumed to be less intelligent than I am because I'm blonde.
Caela:Yeah. I think going back to both of our awards, it's those stereotypes: you're presumed to be less intelligent and I'm presumed to be more cold-hearted.
Chelsea:Yes. That is totally true. And you're not cold hearted at all.
Caela:Thank you! And you're very smart!
Chelsea:Thank you! See? Build each other up!
Caela:Build each other up, people! Not just women, people!
Chelsea:It's very important to just make sure that we're seeing people for who they are. People, not men, not women, people.
Caela:Mmmhmm.... I guess as a fun conclusion... I feel like we have been doing these the past few episodes and they're really fun.
Chelsea:Yay fun conclusions!
Caela:Fun Conclusions.
Chelsea:Conclusions that are fun?
Caela:Yes.
Chelsea:In a fun kinda way?
Caela:Yes they are concluding statements that are fun, in a really really fun way, in a fun sense of the word.
Chelsea:With a fun nature?
Caela:Yes!
Chelsea:Excellent!
Caela:Okay. So we were thinking that it might be cool to list some strong people that we know. And we can tell you whether they are introverts, extroverts, alphas, or betas. Just so you get the idea that you don't have to be an alpha to be strong, you don't have to be an extrovert... introverts are strong too, betas are strong too, alphas can have their weak moments, extroverts have moments when they need some space...
Chelsea:Okay! So strong figures that we admire in society. I'm going to say.... and I mentioned it before. I freaking love Marilyn Monroe. I think that she never got enough credit for how brilliant she was and that had a lot to do with why she had such a hard life. She didn't get credit for that. But she was an alpha that was in that time period, and that was not how people wanted to see her.
Caela:Mmmhmm. I would say... well, I'm gonna give you two. The first one is one that everyone understands as a powerful woman, and that's Eleanor Roosevelt. What people may not know is that Eleanor Roosevelt was incredibly introverted, she was terrified of public speaking, and she really had to work hard to find her voice, because she understood that she was in a position where, if she didn't speak up for those that needed her, that no one would. So her inspiration to find her voice and get over her stage fright was that she knew that she had the power to influence change. So she was an introvert who was probably between alpha and beta; I think FDR and Eleanor had that kind of relationship where they were equally powerful and influential in their relationship.
Chelsea:Yeah.
Caela:But definitely an introvert who saw herself in her young life as a beta, but who then grew into her own. And she became what the world knew as one of the most alpha and influential women they'd ever known... declaration of human rights, anybody? And the person JFK got the in for in his endorsement for presidency. He may not have gotten the nomination if it wasn't for her. In any case, so there's her. And another one I wanted to mention was Harper Lee.
Chelsea:Yeah!
Caela:And she was a writer, she was someone who... well I still don't believe that she wrote her second novel, the one that was republished. I think that was a draft of the original novel and anyone who has read Go Set a Watchman, I do not think it was published with her complete consent, and I do not think it's a representation of her thoughts or her work.
Chelsea:No. I think it's a draft.
Caela:But in any case, in Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird, she wrote about a topic that was still largely taboo, especially in the area she was writing it in. And so even though she was a beta personality and an introverted personality, she was reclusive, she used that power to affect change.
Chelsea:Yeah!
Caela:But she knew what she had. She had the power of her pen and she used that to change the world.
Chelsea:Absolutely. Alright, other strong people. Are we doing women first?
Caela:Yeah, we did women.
Chelsea:Okay, let's each do a strong man and than we can each do either a strong man or woman.
Caela:Okay.
Chelsea:Okay... strong man... ok! I'm going to talk about MLK.
Caela:Yes!
Chelsea:Because he used his softer nature, his beta nature in order to create a nonviolent movement, for something that was very difficult to speak out about at that time. That was very challenging and that was still not accepted in the time that he was able to speak out about that. That was not a common popular mindset yet. It was still... The civil rights movement was still very much new... and many people did not accept it. But whereas some people, like more close to the Black Panther movement, used violence as a way to help perpetuate their movement. MLK used his softer, beta nature for a great purpose. He was able to reach to the hearts and minds of people in a way that didn't require any violence. So I think that that's a strong man there who was not that"stereotypical masculine alpha". He is so strong FOR being a beta.
Caela:Yes, that was perfect. Along the same lines of civil rights, I guess also both of these men were horrifically assassinated, but RFK is one of my favorite men who, like Martin Luther King, used his dynamic personality-- and he was more of an extrovert, but he spoke out about acceptance. And he was... for a white, Catholic man to talk about civil rights to talk about civil rights with the fervor and the passion that he spoke about it at the time was unheard of. And he was killed for it. And I think he was such a pioneer and had he not been killed when he was, I think he would have been a phenomenal leader. So.... But he basically put his life on the line to stand up for what he really believed in and I think that was so admirable and courageous.
Chelsea:Okay. So in recent history, not even history, she's very much young and alive. I'm going to say... Emma Watson. Because she not only is someone who is an actress who has a big following for that and is able to reach people with her artistry, but she took that platform and used it to be an ambassador in many different countries and to speak about this concept of equality.
Caela:And to take that concept even further, our definition of feminism earlier in the podcast is very close to what she calls her HeforShe movement.
Chelsea:Yeah. So Emma Watson created a movement called HeforShe, which is basically just supporting the equality of men and women.
Caela:I guess, to kind of connect the dots there, another recent person is Patrick Stewart. He actually is a phenomenal person. He's been very vocal on social media; he's been photographed and recorded talking about feminism and equal rights at events and everything. He is such an advocate for the idea that all people should be treated equal. I adore him; he is... as much as I hate to admit this... having a white man of influence of his age speaking for the opposite sex is such a powerful thing. Just like RFK speaking for black Americans was such a powerful thing. So I just... I adore him.
Chelsea:Well, this is also something to big keep in mind-- whatever position of power you have, even if you have 12 positions that put you at a disadvantage--, whatever you have of power, use that for your friends and for people that you come across who maybe don't have it. So if you are, the most obvious version of the powerful person is the wealthy white male.
Caela:Mmhmm.
Chelsea:If you happen to be a wealthy white male, use that! You know, say,"Hey, I don't like what you're doing to these women. I don't like what you're saying about this race. Uh, I don't like what you're saying about homosexuals." Use your position as a wealthy white male. Now, if you're not a wealthy white male but you had some sort of position of power, maybe you are in a job where you have a platform where you can see or maybe you are a strong woman or a white woman, even just as a white woman. Um... if you are straight, speak out for the homosexuals. Most people... the majority of you are straight probably. Although we have a lot of gay friends compared to the general population....But... that's a position of privilege. Any position that you have that people aren't going to question, anything that people aren't going to look at and think about as part of you is a position of privilege.
Caela:If you are literate... and I'm not saying that means you need to have the highest quality of education. There are so many people who have so many different multiple intelligences... we've discussed this before. I'm talking about the fact that there are places where people legitimately cannot read a sentence. So if you are literate and can do something, do something.
Chelsea:Use that. This got very political.
Caela:But not bad political!
Chelsea:No! it just got to be a good discussion of some of these political ideas. I think that's important to remember both sides. Actually we were saying before... today... that people who don't necessarily fall on the same side of where you are politically... also try to reach out to them and understand them. Because it may just be part of their past and their history and something that you don't understand or that they don't understand and listening and being open to it....
Caela:Especially if you're in a friendship or acquaintance area with that person. If you do want to change their outlook on something, then yelling at them is not gonna do it, but talking to them and channelling your inner Martin Luther King and RFK and Eleanor Roosevelt... those movers and shakers who did so with grace and poise and clarity of mind, that's how you do it.
Chelsea:Alright guys, thanks for joining us today!
Caela:Thank you so much!
Chelsea:And whoever you are.. man, woman, white, black, asian, some other race, gay, straight, maybe you're not even a man or a woman...
Caela:Muslim, Christian
Chelsea:Muslim, Jewish, Christian, everything. Whatever you are...
Caela:Young or old...
Chelsea:Whatever you are, own it, embrace it and be there for people who are things other than you.
Caela:And be there for those who can't be there for themselves.
Chelsea:So that is our gender stereotypes, but general stereotypes really.... This turned into to general stereotypes. We were thinking of gender stereotypes.
Caela:But it was a good conversation.
Chelsea:Oh, and I think that's important because the gender stereotypes... the way to combat them is to make them...
Caela:General stereotypes.
Chelsea:General!
Caela:Just people.
Chelsea:When you think of people as people. Have a fantastic, fabulous, equal week!
Caela:Equal week?
Chelsea:Yes, it's an equal week.
Caela:Meet wonderful people... talk to wonderful people! Bye everybody!
Chelsea:Have a nice day and a nice week. We'll see you back on the flip side.
Closing:Thank you for joining us this week.... Men, women and everyone. If you would like to join the conversation, suggest a topic or tell us a little about you, You can find us on email at sapiofilespodcasts@gmail.com on Facebook,@sapiofilespodcast, on instagram and twitter@thesapiofiles, or on our youtube channel, The Sapio Files Podcast. Have a fantastic week and we'll see you back here next time. Stay curious everyone!